Topic: The Over-Levelling Problem

This topic contains 37 replies, has 33 voices, and was last updated by  SKull 6 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #12738

    robofish126
    Participant

    That information is not exactly made readily available and it does seem a little unfair to have that info sprung on you when you attempt to do a boss fight with LV 3 heroes.

    That’s a common problem. Difficulty that exists only because the game refused to provide pertinent information about core game mechanics is not a good way to balance the game, especially as it will eventually end up in the wiki/forums/strategy guide anyways. If you actually know about it in advance, or figure it out as soon as your first hero levels to 3, then it isn’t much of a problem, as you can easily maintain a roster size large enough to handle it.

    I think its a good idea mechanically though, in that it prevents easy curbstomps while providing a reason to maintain multiple teams.

    #12854
    Seropram
    Seropram
    Participant

    1)I’m totally fine with the cap mechanic.

    2)I was surprised when my A team turned lvl 3 and refused to go on a lower quest… But I leveled my lower teams to level 2 and I defeated all 3 lvl 1 bosses. To me, it was nothing unbearable and I agree with others that already said that if it’s an issue it’s due to player’s bad management.

    But this thread makes me wonder why people come complaining about the level cap mechanic (without any good argument for now) when they could and should only complain about the fact that level cap is not advertised in tutorial (wich is easy to solve).

    When you ask for easier gameplay just because you’re not aware of a rule at first, i’m sorry but it’s a bit dishonest. Just say you want easier gameplay or just ask for Red Hook to put a line in tutorial that states “Level 3 heroes won’t raid lower dungeons, etc…”

    Actually I think level cap is not restrictive enough. When you go on a lvl 1 dungeon with a lvl 2 party there is some BIG balance issue. Early gameplay is chanllenging because you have lvl 0 heroes fighting lvl 1 monsters. But when you do the same dungeon with a lvl 2 fully upgraded party, challenge is just gone.
    My opinion is that each hero level should match its dungeon counterpart and keep the “hero refuses to go on lower runs” mechanic (that would sound something like : lvl 0 hero goes in lvl 0 dungeon or higher, lvl 1 hero goes on lvl 1 dungeon or higher, and so on) THAT would make the game easier to balance.

    #12905

    SnugglesIV
    Participant

    This one seems to be cropping up a lot, and I agree with most of what I’m hearing. It’s silly using two or three different parties clearing the dungeon up the boss, and then having your characters be too high of a level to actually DO that boss. I know there have been a lot of suggestions thrown around, but here’s what I’m thinking.

    What if none of your heroes were able to level past 2 until you’ve killed all of the level 2 bosses? Just have them cap out at one resolve xp below level 3. The player would still be forced to defeat the bosses with level 2 characters, but the player wouldn’t find themselves with a huge roster of heroes that they can’t use, and thus stymieing progression. After the bosses have been killed, the player could use their level 3 heroes or higher to “babysit” the weaker heroes that they’re trying to train up.

    I don’t think the over-leveling problem is a particularly major one. If we removed that mechanic altogether, we would have people level their A Team to level 5, clear out the first two levels of every boss and then fight the last tier of bosses before moving on to the Darkest Dungeon. If we implemented your idea, I think we reduce the game unnecessarily and it doesn’t work as it doesn’t make any thematic sense. If anything the problem with the level cap mechanic as it stands now is how you suddenly get surprised by it and then have to suddenly scramble a team of noobs together (which happened to me as I decided to level my characters higher to take on the bosses and then got surprised when they couldn’t fight the bosses because they were too high of a level).

    #13033
    arroz2003
    arroz2003
    Participant

    I love the games difficulty, but fix this broken mechanic…. remove level caps, add penalties or deterrents for grinding lower level dungeons. OP is right.

    #13049

    Mezla
    Participant

    1)I’m totally fine with the cap mechanic.

    2)I was surprised when my A team turned lvl 3 and refused to go on a lower quest… But I leveled my lower teams to level 2 and I defeated all 3 lvl 1 bosses. To me, it was nothing unbearable and I agree with others that already said that if it’s an issue it’s due to player’s bad management.

    i think you misunderstood the problem. it isn’t a problem of difficulty, but a problem of immersion/game logic. when you use your first party to unlock a boss, you want them to actually FIGHT that boss. remember that all the players complain about that happening in boss mission only. at lvl 3 it’s less frustrating because 1) you’re aware of the mechanic and 2) in general you already have several teams of different levels.
    i think the game should consider the boss mission one level above (so at lvl 1 boss missions are lvl 3 for example) or something like that. and furthermore i tend to dislike arbitrary restrictions like that but that’s my taste 😉

    #84415

    wreckcelsior
    Participant

    This is NOT a reply or retort to any, and I mean any specific previous post or comment…

    A problem with early release games… everyone thinks they have a way to improve it when they aren’t doing well. As is, all that the game is lacking is minor balance tweaks (I’m looking at you Maggots and Cove traps); it’s a great and different and difficult game. You need a strategy.
    I think players are getting too attached to their heroes and that’s why many are suggesting changes; getting attached to heroes is exactly how you will get wrecked early game. This just isn’t that game.

    I have imposed my own rules to avoid early attachment, based on V11029:

    – Torchlight, torchlight, torchlight!! Nothing dark, early on, as Surprise will just slaughter you, especially without a versatile crew.(Heroes that can hit from any position.)
    Many have had success with dark runs, but with my self-imposed rules, it’s just not feasible.(for me)

      STAGECOACH

    – Upgrade the Stagecoach to 3 or 4, depending on how many deeds you have. If you can only afford the upgrade to 3, you are going to have to send someone out who has just come back, so the Weald (deeds) is uber-important early to get the upgrade to the stagecoach. No-brainer… this is how every game should start, regardless of my rules.
    – No roster upgrades to 12 heroes until I have, at least 3, level 3 heroes. This forces me to use the Stagecoach ‘newbs’ whether I like them or not… and use them, and use them, and use them…
    – I do allow the Stagecoach to upgrade as high as it can go, whenever I can afford/choose to; gonna need the larger selection of newb fodder. (Unfortunately, just like real war planners.)
    – Send out a new party of newbs if there are 4.. if there are only 3 available, I need to send someone who has already been out previously and hopefully is stress-low.. Rinse and repeat, BUT make sure you don’t let all 4 heroes die or you may not have loot to send out new troops.. abandon a quest if necessary, keep the loot and ditch the crew… new 0’s.

      ABBEY/TAVERN

    – After the first 4-hero mission (using lots of torch light), hopefully they are not in need of stress relief, cause they can’t use it.
    – No stress relief (Abbey/Tavern) until level 2. High stress? Dump ’em… new 0’s.
    – No gold spent on anything until level 2. At least at level 2, I have some idea of who is staying or going, so it’s not a waste of money. That being said, I have dismissed a level 2 hero out of necessity.
    I hate upgrading/adding a skill on a low level hero, only to have them stress out and me find a better one in the stagecoach and swap them…money wasted. I make my troops earn their upgrades.

      SANITARIUM/BLACKSMITH/GUILD

    – No Sanitarium, Blacksmith, or Guild usage until level 3. Seems harsh, and yes, sanitarium usage gets more expensive as your levels get higher, but I would rather have none than waste money on throw-aways. I use the Dungeons and any stress relief, negative quirk remover in them that I can. (statues etc.)
    I can, however, upgrade buildings whenever I want/choose; I had nearly 100 of each heirloom before I even looked at the buildings. (Not a strategy, I just didn’t need early upgrades, so I hoarded.)

      TRINKETS

    – No trinkets until level 2.
    This actually helps me to recognize the best of the level 0’s; survive with little stress, without using a trinket, and you’re on my list to keep or at least it’s a positive toward that end.
    I do allow any member to equip a trinket they find in the dungeon, but they can’t equip it when they embark until they are level 2.
    Trust me, this isn’t making the game harder, it just forces me to utilize more adventurers to gain gold and heirlooms, and not fixing the broken souls forces me to consider the stagecoach newbs more. The grind is necessary to succeed, imo.

      CAMPING SKILLS

    – I allow any member of the crew to use their camping skills as this is part of their character… but they can’t upgrade/add skills until level 3.

    And now, the reasoning behind all these rules:

    There are currently (v11029) 8 Bosses/level, and as many have mentioned, rosters quickly fill with over-qualified heroes… No one wants to dump a level 3+ just to go back to a level 1 dungeon to kill a Boss, so planning ahead is needed.
    I fully realize that this will become more difficult once there are 10 Bosses/level when the game is officially released.
    Most of my self-imposed rules are designed to keep me from getting ahead of myself, but more importantly they are there to get me accustomed to comfortably dismissing any hero at anytime, while keeping in mind that I do have to have more than just a bunch of newbs hanging around my barracks.

    Leveling and Bosses:
    At levels 1-2
    0 camp dungeon gets you 2 xp
    1 camp dungeon gets you 3 xp
    2 camp dungeon gets you 4 xp
    Boss (1 camp) gets you 3 xp.

    So,.. a hero levels up to level 3 when he/she has 14xp.
    Using the numbers above, combined with the fact that there are 8 Bosses, it would be impossible to battle 2 Bosses per 4 heroes without gaining to level 3. Since the roster can’t be upgraded, I have to grind to get there.
    I could easily break my own rule and up the roster early on to 16 to accommodate killing the 8 Bosses, which is a very viable strategy, but I found it distracted me from the necessary grinding.
    Level 2 is 8xp so after doing a combination of dungeons including killing one Boss, make sure you are sitting at 13/14xp so you can have one more Boss fight, otherwise you will go over 14xp and become a level 3.
    Mentally reserve 6xp for the 2 Boss fights, add the 2 from the first 0 run =8xp; that leaves you 6xp to do with as you please.
    2 @ 1 camps (6xp), or
    1 @ 0 camp and a 2 camp (6xp), or
    3 @ 0 camps(6xp), or
    1 @ 0 camp and 1 @ 1 camp (5xp)

    This way, the team that cleans out dungeons to get to the Boss, will actually have a chance to kill that Boss…
    This will grow in difficulty as my roster fills out, so I might have to reconsider expanding the barracks earlier than level 3, as I will need twenty heroes to juggle to get through the 10 Bosses per level.

    The most important thing, I found, is using the 0 levels to grind for cash and heirlooms so that when I reach level 3, I have enough to upgrade all of my heroes I can.
    Upgrading my heroes at level 3 and onward is a must for survival and success. Each level 3+ hero with the highest possible upgrades, is a sure route to success. i.e My level 3’s should have maxed skills and weapon/armor before taking on a Boss.

    This whole entire process may seem overly complicated and unnecessary, but I found it helped me to not only understand the monsters better, (you have to learn something when you fight them so much.) it also helped me figure out which heroes worked best with which. (you have to learn something when you fight so much.)

    This exact same thought process must be used for level 3+ onward as there are just as many Bosses in those levels.. there will just be less 0 level grinding as most/all of my roster should be level 3 at this point, BUT 20 heroes used to explore and Boss kill (2 each) still allows me to have 5 grinders, 0 level+, to gather gold and heirlooms.
    END

    Remember this is just my self-imposed rules that I am currently playing the game.. it is not the be-all and end-all of strategies, nor am I the be-all and end-all of players/strategists. Hope it all makes sense.

    I hope this has helped anyone who is struggling with this wonderfully complicated and intriguing long-game game.

    cheers
    “Swarthy workmen.. and sturdy shovels.”

    #235586

    RkShaRkz
    Participant

    Hello guys,

    Since i encountered the same problem which somewhat bored me, i made a workaround and googled a bit and saw you people arguing about it. So, I’ll help the ones that want to change this, and the ones that do like this game mechanic can simply (please) disregard this post.

    Open up the campaign/quest/quest.json file; go to the end of it to find this block:

    
        "restriction": {
            "difficulty": {
                "comment": "This table restricts what level heroes can go on what level quest. ROWS are DIFFICULTY, COLs are QUEST LENGTH",
                "resolve_level_threshold_table": [
                    2,
                    2,
                    3,
                    4,
                    5,
                    99,
                    99
                ]
            }
        }
    

    Change it to look like this:

    
        "restriction": {
            "difficulty": {
                "comment": "This table restricts what level heroes can go on what level quest. ROWS are DIFFICULTY, COLs are QUEST LENGTH",
                "resolve_level_threshold_table": [
                    99,
                    99,
                    99,
                    99,
                    99,
                    99,
                    99
                ]
            }
        }
    

    And now all heroes can go on all quests.

    You can also change this

    
            "difficulty": {
                "generated_resolve_level_difficulties": [
                    {
                        "resolve_levels": [
                            0,
                            1,
                            2
                        ],
                        "difficulty": 1
                    },
                    {
                        "resolve_levels": [
                            2,
                            3,
                            4
                        ],
                        "difficulty": 3
                    },
                    {
                        "resolve_levels": [
                            4,
                            5,
                            6
                        ],
                        "difficulty": 5
                    }
                ]
            }
    

    into this if you want

    
            "difficulty": {
                "generated_resolve_level_difficulties": [
                    {
                        "resolve_levels": [
                            0,
                            1,
                            2,
                            3,
                            4,
                            5,
                            6
                        ],
                        "difficulty": 1
                    },
                    {
                        "resolve_levels": [
                            3,
                            4,
                            5,
                            6
                        ],
                        "difficulty": 3
                    },
                    {
                        "resolve_levels": [
                            5,
                            6
                        ],
                        "difficulty": 5
                    }
                ]
            }
    

    Cheers, Shark.

    #248610

    SKull
    Participant

    This can be countered with a little planning so I don’t quite see the big deal. Four groups for the final dungeons and two farming groups work fine for me, so 24 heroes total. I usually don’t even recruit the last four unless I have to, or if I do they’re really, really backups, just there in case someone dies. Once you get to 20 heroes you can just send the lowest four on non-boss runs and usually have more or less a full roster of level 2s for the bosses.

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