Topic: Community Discussion – Pain Points

This topic contains 15 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by Grigori Grigori 5 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #218468
    redhookjohn
    redhookjohn
    Keymaster

    Salutations Hamlet Dwellers!

    It is indeed that time again to raise a topic of interest to us and hear from you, the players. We’ve been on a bit of hiatus from these discussions as our focus was on the ports. Now that most of that work is behind us, and we begin to look towards the DLC we wanted to again talk about a common topic that weaves through many of the discussions that happen here on the boards. Today we want to talk about the remaining specific pain points that exists that lie outside what you feel to be core to the game experience.

    We are using the term pain points as it better captures what we want to talk about, but this includes what I would assume many refer to as the grind. Rather than raise specific topics we are concerned with or where we think we might make adjustments, we’d like to hear you raise what you believe to be the issues without any real prompting from us beside the following:

    Which parts, if any, of the Darkest Dungeon experience have caused you to stop playing before completing the game?

    Darkest Dungeon is a game about making the most out of bad situations. Losses are expected to happen, and we want the gains and losses you feel to have weight. We steadfastly maintain that it’s not a game for everyone, but if you are the type that picked it up and sunk some enjoyable time into it but stopped playing partway through, is there any particular reason?

    So there it is, and now we eagerly await your responses. Please as always, be thoughtful and concise. We respect the time and effort you put into to share your thoughts and we are grateful for it.

    #219040

    TheGreatEvilKing
    Participant

    First, I want to say that I really love the way you guys created the game atmosphere, the art is amazing, the narration is amazing, and it does a really good job of conveying the mood you wanted. That said, there are same issues I have with the game that have discouraged me from finishing it.

    No real consequences

    The real breaking point for me was when I got to the Darkest Dungeon. Not because it was hard, not because I lost a whole party to the first boss – no, that was frustrating, but I was OK with it after reflection. I loved the atmosphere, I liked the mutant cultists, and the game conveyed that the world was on the line and the darkness was rising.

    The consequences were that I lost a bunch of heroes and high-level items. At first glance, that sounds like a crippling loss – but as the game puts it, new heroes arrive on the stagecoach all the time. I found many of those same items from wandering around the dungeons again. The only actual loss is the time it will take to get these guys up to level 6, but I’m not allowed to grind them every week without having to rest them. I can’t actually lose the game. I can train up a team with the exact same capabilities as the last one if I choose. I don’t have to worry about the Shambling Horror being released, I can keep throwing expendable morons at him until he eventually dies. At that point the atmosphere is lost and I don’t want to play anymore, because I’m just going to do the same old things until something eventually works.

    However, I would not feel bad if I straight up lost the game on a failed Darkest Dungeon run. Thematically, it makes sense – you failed to stop the cultists’ god and the world is doomed – and from a gameplay perspective it’s a loss that cannot be ignored. After a point “rolling with the losses” turns into “sunk costs” and tedium. This rolls right into…

    The game is too long and leveling is pointless
    The 1-6 level grind feels less like an integral part of playing the game and more like an arbitrary gate to prevent the player from seeing cool new content and keep them doing the same old stuff. A level 1 crusader has the same four skills as a level 6. The only available upgrades are bigger numbers. This is enforced by a numbers check for the higher level content – but combat never really changes. The PCs don’t get new abilities, most of the monsters are the same, and you get to fight the same boss 3 times. It’s totally understandable that the PCs would be freaked out the first time they encounter a fish dude, the next 20 times…not so much. In XCom you and the aliens discover new abilities – psionics, invisibility, flight – that change the nature of the game when uncovered. In Darkest Dungeon you are still clicking smite on the fish dude.

    This really feels like you could take a lot of the leveling portion out of the game and it would probably be better for it, as people could get to the darkest dungeon more easily. Maybe the bosses all carry part of a key and you need to beat X number of bosses to unlock the first part of the dungeon. You could probably just have one dungeon run for each boss – the first time you run the ruins, the necromancer is at the end and you need to kill him, for example – and when you fight three or so bosses you unlock part of the Darkest Dungeon. You can even randomize the bosses some so it doesn’t feel like the same game every time. Keep trinkets for the Skinner box and the feeling of customization, but in this scenario you can take leveling out of the game and lose virtually nothing.

    Alternatively you can actually add elements to the gameplay so characters feel like they’re leveling up and the gameplay actually changes with new PC abilities that change the flow of combat, and I don’t mean numbers. Maybe people get a super move they can bust out once per fight or per dungeon. Maybe they can start slotting more active abilities as they rise in level. I don’t know, and many of the design decisions you’ve made with the current combat engine (no cooldowns, no secondary resources, only 4 positions per side) make it a lot more difficult to fit in new abilities. I suppose you could have super moves powered by stress damage (the Vestal conjures a holy firestorm that deals 100% damage to the enemy team but takes X amount of stress, for example) or from hit points. Either would fit in with the constant attrition of the game.

    In summation, these two points together manage to turn the game into something that should be atmospheric and awesome into a long, tedious grind, the memory of which stays long after the atmosphere is gone.

    #220578

    iamthedave
    Participant

    While I don’t agree about the game being too long, I do think that there’s an issue with levelling being pointless. Once you’ve unlocked all eight skills, put your guy in the team you want him in, from that point on all he’s doing is levelling up those skills and his gear.

    In games like this you want to be discovering new cool moves as you level up (lets be honest, the numbers are never the draw in TBS games or TBRPGS), and that is a missing element in DD. Of course, balancing these things is… tricky. And might not be implementable.

    I think the biggest pain point for me remains how ridiculously expensive latter-stage upgrades become. Even with the merchant, even with the secret rooms, even with all the improvements designed to get more money out of runs, it still usually annihilates the bank to set one team up with top-level armour, and usually that’s without top level skills.

    Also, I really would like a feature to segment the adventurers into distinct teams. The roster size is great, but I’d like to be able to group them into the teams I want them in, just so I know who is meant to be with whom, when I need to slot someone in to replace a dead guy, that sort of thing.

    Also, the price for locking positive traits is punitive. When you get into the Darkest Dungeon itself you kind of need to start purging bad traits, and locking really good ones. I sort of understand why, but the price could be halved without being too cheap.

    I think some of the camp skills maybe need rebalancing in terms of how much they cost. They’re great and they’re powerful, and very few are now pointless, but some of them use an absolute ton of time, and I’m not sure that’s necessary now you’ve put a time limit on how long they’re even in effect for.

    Move skills still seem a bit cack. The Bounty Hunter’s hook is such a beautiful, flavour-laden tool, but its in-game uses seem almost negligible.

    Some in-game story content for the various heroes would be great. I know that they are sort of disposable and they all sort of die all the time, but those stories you put together for a few of them were fantastic. I’d love it if you put some written or – dare I say it – narrated lines about the heroes’ backstories? I can just imagine the ancestor telling the sad tale of the highwayman, for example.

    Darkest Dungeon’s greatest strength is its setting and style, and the ancestor – and the voice actor who brought us him – is probably your single greatest asset. There’s no such thing as too much ancestor dialogue in my view 🙂

    Hmm. I think part of the problem now is you’re bringing out a DLC. How much are you planning to add with it? Are our comments going to be invalidated by new content that’ll address it?

    It’s hard for me to find real pain points. I love this game a lot. It’s really just that there’s more ‘stuff’ I’d like to see, and things are still a bit costly. I kind of feel like a reasonable length of time to gear up a team is two veteran runs, but it can easily take three or more if one goes even slightly wrong.

    #225391

    Atballz
    Participant

    Hey there guys. I’m a relatively newcomer to the game and community, but I’ve already logged over 50hrs of play so I figure maybe I can speak?

    First off, thank you for this game. The visuals, the storytelling, the gameplay itself is all amazing and I find myself downright addicted to this game. But I have to admit that there have been several points where I just wanted to stop playing altogether.

    I don’t know if it’s just a matter of extremely, and I mean EXTREMELY, bad luck on my part, but my main gripe in this game has always been the sheer amount of seemingly broken RNG that makes much of the game simply outright unfair. It’s almost as if there really isnt any point whatsoever to even bother calling it a turn based game or having Spd, Dodge, Acc, Crit, or Resistance stats. No matter how high your speed is, something with 2-3spd is still going to fire off 3-4 attacks for every 1 of your own. Your dodge is over 30? You’ll never jump out of the way. But you’re going to miss that 2dodge brigand 4 out of 5 times even fully upgraded with acc increasing trinkets. You’ll take a crit every other turn if your lucky, every turn if you’re not. But when it comes to dishing one out? Well, you arent likely to hit the opponent anyway, and less likely to crit if you do. Dont bother using trinkets to increase your resistances, as even with the base amount plus another 50% increase through trinkets, you’re going to take that status effect every single time you get hit. Then you have to run a gauntlet of battles against enemies you cant hit half the time, all of whom are not only getting more attack turns, but are also just about all going to out dps your hardest hitters by more than 1.5x. All of this without any meaningful healing items or useful healing abilities, even on your white mage whose useless healing abilities are only good for bringing people back from death’s door for half a second before being sent right back. And EVEN THAT isnt likely because again, every enemy unit gets an average 2-5 turns for your every 1 so your people are likely to end up dead before you even get a chance to look at your Vestal and ask for help. The RNG is disgustingly biased in favor of the enemy units, and no matter how great your stats are, they’re essentially useless. All in all, it amounts to artificial difficulty through simple unfairness. It’s like putting a taser in the hand of a naked person and sending them to do combat in an open field against a battle tank souped up with omnidirectional machinegun cannons, capable of moving 50mph, with the hatch welded shut so even if he/she does somehow magically make it to the tank, they cant get into it to tase the driver.

    The leveling system, as stated by others, I find tedious as well, though for other reasons. I can understand the idea of wanting to limit the player from taking a high level character back to an easier dungeon to prevent speed farming. But it’s EXTREMELY annoying and artificially game prolonging the way it is. Defeating a boss is likely to shoot you up into the next level tier and out of the running to fight another boss. I literally had to train 24 seperate teams up to the appropriate level to take out each of the 8 bosses at Apprentice, Veteran, and Champion level. This was excessively tedious, expensive, and time consuming when I’d rather have been progressing in the story. (Why so many? Because as a new player who doesnt resort a wiki unless absolutely necessary I was unaware of this whole leveling scheme until it was too late and had filled my roster with veterans before killing any apprentice bosses. And after veteran each level up has a new title, which doesnt help when the bosses dont explicitly state the allowable hero levels). And honestly, the difference in power between an apprentice and a legendary hero is negligible, with only a few points more in damage and some useless increases in “accuracy” that dont matter anyway. The only real difference you see between an apprentice and a legendary is in the form of sheer hp amounts which, since the monsters scale in strength to quickly outrun your hp (in veteran dungeons it took at most 3 hits to put me at deaths door, champion dungeons with all of the overpowered super tank monsters had me there in just 1). The uprades to skills are just about pointless. You’ll see a change of 3-4hp healed for divine grace in a vestal (useless), maybe an additional 1-2DOT for DOT attacks (useless), dont even bother wasting gold on stress reducing abilities, as you’ll never be able to keep up with even a 3rd of the stress damage you take (useless). All in all, the whole leveling scheme seems like a redundant and punitive system meant to sap your gold on useless upgrades and negligible equipment that arent worth the resources spent on them.

    Despite these aggravations, the game as a whole is beautifully done and addicting to play, regardless of how mindnumbingly frustrating it can be. It’s a marvelous concept and I think with some fine tuning of the game’s mechanical drawbacks it could potentially be one of the greatest games of all time. I look forward to seeing it continue to evolve.

    #225433

    Agrivar
    Participant

    My biggest pain poins, some of which are similar to those which have already been said:

    – I have suffered too many common occurrences of RNG results extremely favorable to monsters, as four or five consecutive Critical Hits from groups comprised by “low-level” enemies. In some battles, critical hits seemed to be more common than normal hits, which to me it seems wrong. I come from the “DnD” rules school were critical hits are quite uncommon (a 5 % chances in a normal roll). It is not something which makes you wanting to quit the game, but the common occurrence of critical hits seems to me wrong. Personally, I will prefer a combat system in which critical hits are rare in normal conditions, but they can become very common if you (an the monsters) use the proper buffs. I wonder how would combat be if heroes increased their PROT instead of HP when levelling up, and critical hits, instead of multiplying damage, did maximum normal damage AND ignored PROT.

    – I don’t like the notion of Hunger events. It kill the mood when heroes become hungry just after having enjoyed a feast when camped thirty seconds ago, or when after having suffered a Hunger event (in which you used food), you suffer a second hunger event in the next room. Hunger Events could be changed to something like the “Spoiled Rations” which I think it was seen in some of the early previews of the game, in which you could lose some food from your inventory, and “Hunger” become a debuff which you acquired under certain conditions (as not eating any food when camping), and maybe a hero could die from hunger if he suffered two consequitive hunger-inducing effects (as not eating any food in two consecutive campings). It is a bit strange to see heroes dying from not eating when theoretically they have not been more than one day inside the dungeon.

    – The process of levelling heroes from Level 3 to 5 seems to me much more tedious than levelling heroes from Level 1 to 3. The fact that you are forced to level a minimun of 16 heroes to Level 5 to finish the campaign makes this even more burdensome (although mood-wise I love the “Never Again” mechanic). I’m not sure what can be done to making levelling from 3 to 5 less tedious. Maybe adding some activities from high level heroes, like mentoring other heroes?

    The “My level is too high for this Dungeon” mechanic is another of those game concepts which I find mood-killing, and it contribute to the tediousness of levelling high level heroes and the need to level newer heroes to do further Darkest Dungeon missions. Aklthough maybe if, when refusing to enter a low level dungeon, heroes said “I’m not going to needlessly risk my life in unnecesarry missions” instead of “This level is below my abilities”, I would not fins this mechanic so mood-killing (I think that in this setting no hero would ever consider a dungeon or a monster “too easy”, no matter how high is the level of that hero).

    #230497

    countblah2
    Participant

    I just came back to the game after playing around 55+ hours throughout the beta as a Kickstarter backer who was considering buying a Vita copy. As someone who has gamed for way too long, my return to the game was probably among the top 3 frustrating gaming experiences over 3+ decades of gaming (and this includes playing many other “tough but fair” roguelikes like The Pit, TOME, etc).

    I had about 4 level 6s, a bunch of level 5s, about 5 level 4s, and some 0-1s, most of the town was unlocked. When I last played, I felt like my chances to clear a level 5 dungeon were pretty respectable. Hell, I defended DD on several occasions on reddit as being balanced appropriately at the time when others suggested it was too hard (around the time you all added toggles to disable certain things that made the game more difficult).

    I would say that I could barely get halfway in the level 5 dungeons I tried today, and some I couldn’t get more than a few rooms into before the damage I was taking was decimating my party. I still can’t tell if the RNG is simply against me–the enemies seems to crit a LOT, my Vestal missed 3 stuns in a row, the damage piles up way, way too fast to react to–never mind heal, especially since the enemy seems to single out a character and go for him each time. It was excruciating compared to when I played before. I confess I was slamming the desk in frustration and disbelief–dungeons that I felt were relatively balanced six months or a year ago, and suddenly I can’t get past a couple of fights in them. Maybe if I had started fresh, my experience would have been different. I tried level 5 dungeons maybe 4 or 5 times with a variety of party members and trinkets. Yes, I had to adjust to new enemies and other things I hadn’t seen before in beta/early access, but even familiar enemies tore through my team like butter.

    Interestingly, as I ran out of cash and had to field my low level party to scrounge a few thousand gold to fund higher level expeditions, they breezed through the level 1 dungeons. Like not even a challenge, barely took any damage, waste of time stuff. I believe this is because the damage is scaling appropriately at low levels, whereas at high levels, it is kind of obscene, especially when you start missing hits/stuns/debuffs in response.

    Meanwhile the level 5 dungeons seem like “pray to not get crit”, “pray your stun lands”, “pray for X” otherwise your run (and investment) is soon toast. Maybe I can scrape a small level 5 dungeon run together on luck (my crit/stun prayers), but getting a medium/large run? That seems pretty laughable right now. I literally just lost a character to 3 thieves enemies, two with blades and one with a gun. The bladed enemies do 15-20 combined damage a hit on my two front characters, the ranged unit does 5 damage to each of my units. That seems like insane output compared to a) what my characters inflict, if they even connect b) what I can heal either in battle or outside with food/rest. AND I had the enemy outnumbered, and they still killed a unit.

    So this dynamic feels like incredible “padding”. Send the low levels in for cake walks, make gold, send in the “real” teams, get obliterated, rinse and repeat. No progress, just a cycle of 1) boredom then 2) frustration. Plus, my hand is sore from slamming the desk. So, yea, I had fun in early versions, but release DD is something that I doubt I’ll pick back up unless someone can help me understand what changed or what I’m doing wrong now.

    #230591
    Nilaus
    Nilaus
    Participant

    I’ve played about 200 hours of Darkest Dungeon and I am returning to it again now, so that will probably be another 100 hours accrued before long 🙂 Having completed the game on normal, NG+ and NG+ torchless I have been around a bit.

    A lot of the early frustration is now just “part of the game”, but I do see the frustration in it:
    * Excessive need to farm gold with Antiquarian runs just to keep up with the upgrades. It is probably intended that you have to make tough choices on where and what to upgrade and not just keep everyone fully upgraded all the time. This is not really the fault of DD, but rather every other game for making us complacent as gamers and allowing us to choose “everything” instead of prioritising
    * The very sudden jump from difficulty from level 1 to 3 and 3 to 5 is a brick wall at first. After a few playthoughs you learn to optimise XP so they are close to level 3/5 but not quite so they can leap into next level and spend as little time there. Especially lvl 5 dungeon bosses on NG+ are rather unforgiving.
    * The effect of RNG is about the same as in Poker. Noobs complain about being “unlucky” while pros know the odds and play them accordingly. This is the most frustrating and most rewarding part of the game as well. This is similar to XCom on Legend where you should not gamble your team on a single roll of 70%. The video of some YouTuber who raged and broke his keyboard is very illustrative of playing the game wrong. You cannot sit rely on “just one more hit or they all die”.

    There are a few minor tweaks I could wish for and one rather big one:
    * (Major) Even level dungeons. I know this would require a lot of rebalancing, but it really would alleviate the sudden jumps in power level and make the progression a lot smoother. If you didn’t want to do 1-5 for all, then it could be something like Ruins/Warrens: 1-3-5 and Weald/Cove: 2-4-6
    * (Minor) Normalisation of enemy crits to make sure they don’t string together for instant kills without opportunity to react
    * (Minor) Less variance on the initiative roll. use a D6 instead of a D8 as sometimes really weird sequences happen which detracts from the overall tactical ability
    * (Minor) Somehow make the start less unforgiving. I feel the first 5-8 weeks are critical and here I rather often have to start over because the teams are so fragile and random. 4 lvl 0 with no useful trinkets have a tough time in a lvl 1 dungeon, while a team of 4 lvl 2 with full trinkets steamroll a lvl 1 dungeon.

    Streaming (DD NG+): https://www.twitch.tv/nilaus
    Gameplay videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD80bzqJh1N7lOqn7n0vKTg

    #232382

    RedSword
    Participant

    One of the frustrating point is when you level up and realize that you’re now paying more; as if being experienced was a problem. I can understand it for stress removal purpose (as it means you experienced harder things), but it makes no sense that you have to pay a more punitive price for locking a trait or removing a disease (not sure about whether or not disease price increase per level though). When you’re level 1 you’re already paying incredible high price for locking traits.

    On the weapon / guild side, high levels are rather tedious (i.e. from 1k to 2k, 2k to 4k for the upgrades, notably), and it brings nothing to the game beside asking the player to grind. You could consider that your blacksmith / guildmaster has level/experience that is gotten upon upgrading, so that the price decrease (slightly) with multiple upgrades. (i.e. 4k the first ones, I can understand it, but continually getting it is a tedious pain in the a** ; I feel that going as far as half price would be reasonable, over time (i.e. the 10/20th upgrade or so would be at that price)).

    I agree with the previous posts, notably Nilaus (though I only have 50h). One thing I could add to Nilaus “Normalisation of enemy crits” is that some games like Valve’s DotA 2 use a less-random random. You may want to take a look at it.

    #234994
    Stoner
    Stoner
    Participant

    Glad to see that dev still supports this game and wants to improve it, rare sight nowadays.

    On subject, considering I modded everything that was setting me off (thanks for easily moddable game resources) I don’t really have any “pain points”, only “fun points” but nevertheless I have shelved this game for quite some time, the reason is: repetitiveness. Just got tired seeing those 4 dungeons over and over again, considering I have finished game twice.

    Hopefully with new updates this will be addressed. I still don’t get the idea why, for example, Wolves at the Door haven’t been turned into 5th dungeon, it has unique and beautiful stage, new enemies, with some effort could be turned into another dungeon quite easily, but it’s just one time event… Also would be good to see Final Dungeons expanded somehow, it has the most beautiful and atmospheric stages in the game, toughest and scariest looking enemies, but when you learn them, it takes you literally 4 runs and you done with them and don’t see it until you get to the late game again. Some randomness or just ability to grind it like other dungeons would be very welcome, but turn those 4 stages as boss encounters or something. Seriously, that’s a lot of content missing off for no apparent reason which kills diversity pretty hard.

    P.S. As a minor improvement: ability to exchange heirlooms for small amount of gold would be very welcome. And considering RNG, I see that most people aren’t happy with it, but I certainly am, I wouldn’t advice touching it, because without it game loses it’s main focus IMHO.

    #236364
    TheLonelyJester
    TheLonelyJester
    Participant

    Hey Redhook, I love Darkest Dungeon as a game and I actually made an account to reply to this topic. Hopefully you have been keeping watch, though I understand if you have not since this was created in November.

    My personal painpoint is actually a single pain point that has stopped me from finish the game. Namely, the hamlet attacks. These attacks are frustrating for several reasons, especially since they violate some internal game consistency. I have four reasons they frustrate me, so that hopefully you understand my frustrations.

    1st frustration: Vvulf comes back from the dead. In a game where death is permanent, this is frustrating beyond belief. When I lose a hero they are dead for good, yet Vvulf gets back up and raids my hamlet soon after his death as if all I did was drive him off. When I kill Vvulf, he comes back within several weeks.

    2nd Frustration: There is no warm-up for the Vvulf fight. All of the other bosses in the game, with the exception of the Darkest Dungeon bosses, are three tiered affairs. The first fight introduces their gimmick and the next two increase the difficulty of the boss. Vvulf has no such learning curve, which is annoying but amplified by the fact that you lose a character for fleeing the mission. It would be nice if there were practice fights vs bandit leaders weaker than Vvulf, say a green, an orange, a red, and then a Vvulf raid on the hamlet. Not only would that give people time to practice the fight but it would also introduce the concept earlier because…

    3rd Frustration: The bandit attack comes out of the blue, no warning at all. You think with constantly sending parties out into the different areas and trimming down the monstrous population that there would be some warning of an attack on your home base. Having different levels of the Vvulf fight would allow you to introduce the concept earlier into the game. This is frustrating since there is No warning, no chance to go out and stop the problem before it reaches, and no way to upgrade your defenses. Adding in a town gate, or making the supply missions you do for the town actually improve its defenses would go a long way to mitigating the bandit attack pain point. After all the hamlet It is the home base of your heroes, the only safe place in the game. Ruining that sanctity needs to be done carefully otherwise you risk upsetting your players. what are the rest of them doing while the four you send out go into the town?

    4th Frustration: Loss of a hero. Losing a hero when you flee the mission is BS and really frustrating given how early the attacks can show up. It encourages you to sacrifice a team of level 1s rather than go in and do an honest attempt. Especially since this is a mechanic that exists only when exploring the Darkest Dungeon. This goes back to the second point a bit, this encounter is as difficult as a Darkest Dungeon run while outside of the Darkest Dungeon. The reuse of these mechanics cheapens the Darkest Dungeon since these mere bandits are apparently just as terrifying as eldritch horrors, because that is what the reuse of the mechanic means.

    So to summarize these
    1: Vvulf never dies, despite being killed
    2: The encounter uses Darkest Dungeon mechanics while outside of the darkest dungeon
    3: There is no way to prepare the hamlet against the attack
    4: The hamlet, a supposedly safe area, is violated in a manner that does not do enough good things to justify this rules change.

    If I had to pick a single big thing that I would want changed, it would be #1. If the attacks stopped with Vvulf’s death then everything else wrong with the encoutner would be grudgingly acceptable.

    #237651

    Sabatour
    Participant

    RNG on initiative is a joke. Regardless of speed, monsters always get multiple attacks to your one – and it ALWAYS happens when someone is close to deaths door. I have no issues with perma death or a hard game or resource management but this is ridiculous. Hag had THREE turns in a row – silly. This is what is going to cause me to put this game down. Feels a lot like trying to win at a carnival game at this point.

    #238236

    Sabatour
    Participant

    Another example of RNG fail.
    Two mobs – full group
    First mob goes – knocks player on deaths door, second mob goes and attacks deaths door player. One person on my team goes (not healer), both mobs go again and attack player on deaths door. So thats 4 attacks to my one, I dont care how good of a poker player you are or how much of a vet – that doesnt seem like it is working as intended.

    #238893

    Sixxno
    Participant

    I wish that hunger was an actual meter or stat that you can keep track of.

    It REALLY IRKS ME, that I can feed some one 4 food, walk 2 spaces, and then have to feed every one including him again.

    With it being a bar/stat/meter, it opens up gameplay possibilities. Instead of just ‘they eat less/more when it triggers’, it could go down/up depending on those quirks. Enemy attacks or diseases would now also be able to affect hunger rate. It also stops a motion of eating, getting into combat, then eating again since the meter would still be filled.

    Finally it could tie into the expansion’s theme of vampires and thirst.

    #239700

    Dixis
    Participant

    Hi,

    Firstly, DD is a great game, with a nice dev team (a bunch of sadistic maniac, but I like you and your work). I have 220 hours on the game, normal mode, NG+ and also pitch black but this is… another story. I came back to normal mode to chill recently and haven’t finished it… Why ? I love the game but I was a bit bored. All the new game look the same for one reason I think : there is no different strategy about how the game progression is handled, no different pathways. I explain :

    Hamlet upgrades are mostly non-impactful beside forge and guild that are basically mandatory to lvl up your heroes.

    This is even more true in NG+, I never upgrade church, bar, or whatever. You don’t have the time/gold for it and it is basically useless, just use camp to finish up every run with 0 stress or close to 0, save your gold. In early game when you can’t finish up with 0 stress, just throw the hero away and recruit a new one.

    So every game goes like this : up max slot on hero barack, then forge, then guild. Then you might want a bit of sanitarium for disease.

    You cannot go and say : this time I will try to max out the bar, because it will bring this advantage during my run and will try to play around this strategy. Start an alternative path.

    Hamlet upgrade should be more impacful about what your team can do. Maybe you could buy some bonus at the bar or church for the next run, like a stress resistance buffer, an immunity to bad quirk on a char, or a guaranted positive quirk at the end of the run (if the guy survive). Whatever.

    All hamlet upgrades should be less expensive but i believe that might be adressed in the coming ‘radiant mode’. That would push player to actually buy the upgrade and split their gold into interesting bonus combination strategy. This would also create a gold sink in late game.

    Another thing would be more random unique, unexpected, encounter like the collector.

    But yeah, the thing that is mostly making me stop is the too simplistic, one way, ‘macro-management’ of the town. There is no excitation about the upgrade… Lets just stack gold to be able to upgrade my char. You could remove all the hamlet and put a ‘up armor/skill’ on the character sheet it would basically be the same to me right now.

    Good thing, i’m still excited about the du ngeon run, even after 200 hours. So well played DD ! More macro and the game would be godlike.

    PS : hope my english doesn’t cause to much stress on the reader, not my native language.

    #241670

    JackONeill
    Participant

    I think what really made me stop the game before the end was :
    – over reliance on RNG for lvl5+ dungeons : the more you advance in the game, the more likely you are to eat a game-ending crit that will just completely screw you regardless of your preparation. This dynamic is annoying, since before lvl5 it’s much more about whether you prepare a very good party with good stuff/quirks or if you go for a risky run that could end up being a disaster. RNG is a big part of darkest dungeon and i don’t mind it as long as it doesn’t get increasingly oppressive, instead of difficulty relying on other stuff too. When you’re at the point where you go for a short run in the weald with your A team and the best preparation you can come up with, and stroll through until you meet a giant that crits twice with treebranch smackdown and you loose two guys, you don’t really wanna play the game anymore. On the other hand, if you go for a long run and eat few bad crits and encounters, and decide to go back, well you don’t really get mad, because you decide when to cut your losses instead of insta-dying in 2 turns.
    – RNG being a “artificial game length increase” : in the end, the RNG and incapacity to prepare correctly in this game isn’t “difficulty”. It’s just a way to increase game duration. Loosing heroes only means you have to grind more, instead of truly giving you any sort of penalty. And at some point, you’ll get bored with your run because you lost a hero and don’t wanna do again what you’ve been doing all game long.
    – lack of diversity : wether it’s exploring 90% of rooms, or winning room fights, or purifying altar, in the end it always comes down to exploring the map. There’s no real difference between runs, and the only thing that really changes is the number/type/formation of ennemies you meet.
    – lvl 5+ ennemies having insane dodging values : it’s not fun to miss miss miss miss. I’d much rather have ennemies with lots of HP that you actually can hit instead of waiting to luck out and hit that stress caster that has BS dodge values.

    I’m writing this because i have 189 hours of playtime on this game without having finished it even once.

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